Concerned about an engine

shanditalia458

Forum Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2017
Messages
22
Location
Salem, WV
Car Year
1996
Car Model
Legacy L
Transmission
4EAT
Not sure if this is a suitable place for this type of question, but it seems appropriate.

My question/concern is, I hear that there is a certain year range of 2.5L Subaru engines that have a bad habit of blowing head gaskets. So my question is what year range is this? And what mileage does it normally happen.

My concern comes from the prospect of a new Subie. I am currently looking at an 06 Forester 2.5 w/154k miles for 5k, or an 07 Impreza Outback Sport wagon with 126k miles for 7k. I CANNOT make a kind of gamble where I buy a shot 2.5 with gaskets that are already blown or will blow within the month. I need to know what to look for, what to avoid, etc. And I need to buy something that will carry me for years to come.

I also hear that for some reason, the factory head gaskets are crap, but once they are replaced then everything is A-OK. Is this because the replacement gasket is, in fact, a redesigned model to fix the problem? Or something else?

All feedback is welcome and appreciated.
 
The head gasket issue was confined to the '03-'05 Series I SG so from '06 onwards you should be OK; besides if the cars you're looking at had an issue the gasket would've been replaced long ago. Hopefully you can get a service history for these cars?
 
Any car with poor servicing has an increased chance of blowing a head gasket, and many other problems as well
 
Our MY10 and MY 06 Foresters both have slightly weeping head gaskets - 2 on the SH and one on the SG.

Neither uses any oil between changes, that's about every 24 months/12,000 Kms.

Both have EJ-253 donks and use Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 fully synthetic oil.
 
Great to hear guys, thanks. This opens up a lot more options for me as well in terms of available/recommended model years.

So you are saying that an 07 EJ25 is a reliable engine? Just wanting to get as much peace of mind as possible here.
 
Some models/years are more susceptible and it also seems to differ a little from model to model in how they fail. Lots of N/A 2.5L engines from late 90s through to mid 00's seem to need it done at some point, certainly most 2.5L Outbacks I've seen were weeping, but In think it was rarer on the 2.0L Impreza's, and on the Turbo Foresters.

My MY06 N/A Forester has a weeping gasket that has gotten worse in the last 10,000 ks, currently at 195,000ks, so I don't buy that it was 'solved' on any date. Just about every car I've looked into buying was prone to its own particularly expensive and overly complicated common repair, it's a chance you take. Learn where to check for leaks/signs on Youtube (Briansmobile1 is a great channel for Subie repairs) to ensure that it won't fail within the month, and if you really can't live with the chance that your 11 year old car might need major repairs at some point, buy the Forester for 2k less than the Impreza and use the extra allowance in your budget to have the repair done as a preventative.

By nearly all accounts the third party replacement gaskets are better than OEM and will outlive the car. Good idea to budget for a clutch or belts while the engine is out, unless they're new. If it's already weeping you might have grounds to bargain a little. I'll be getting mine done soon at 200,000ks and figure that the car should take me to 400,000 and beyond once it's done, it's otherwise a good reliable engine.
 
Best head gaskets are OEM. Just don't use head bolts, use good quality head studs
 
Rally said:
Best head gaskets are OEM. Just don't use head bolts, use good quality head studs
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Usually I'd disagree on alot of oem parts since as good or better can be had cheaper. Yet when I comes to gaskets/seals/welch plugs etc, I'm on board with rally only good ones are oem from subaru (or any other manufacturer for their vehicles)
 
shanditalia458 said:
Great to hear guys, thanks. This opens up a lot more options for me as well in terms of available/recommended model years.

So you are saying that an 07 EJ25 is a reliable engine? Just wanting to get as much peace of mind as possible here.
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Let's put it this way. What do you really want? Performance, capability, longevity, comfort, utility, value? If you want to check many boxes at once, no 2000-2009 US Subaru fits the bill. A friend, and a well-respected member of this forum, found a GX470 for a very reasonable price. It has 150k miles but will outlast any Subaru of the 2005-7 period and it has MUCH higher offroad potential unless all you do is sand. Mpg may not be stellar but it is not dreadful either and what use is good mpg on an underpowered car with average reliability? The H6 engines are much better but the vehicles with them suffer from angle and clearance issues worse than those on later models and even if the older H6 OBs come with VDC, they are not tuned the way the current ones are and thus are inferior offroad.

Moreover, n/a H4 Subarus are not really all that economical. Load them up and any savings go down the drain while every hill becomes a challenge.

Now, if you could find a well-maintained 2007-8 US model AT FXT, that would be great. With VDC, short wheelbase, small footprint, on-road performance, and good off-road potential that one is a gem. I am not sure how durable their engines are but at least the package as a whole is very compelling.

I would not touch an EJ 25. Even late year EJ25s can have head gasket issues. I am sure my memory is right that all the 2000s H4 scored much worse than average in CR due to this issue.
 
It might be useful to define reliability. For me, reliability is a paramount concern because it is my intention to go bush, including the outback, and get home without a breakdown. Will the H4 do that? Yes, it will, if it has been properly maintained. Will it be case of on going issue after issue? Not if properly maintained. As for head gasket issues, there are two main types. One that results in a loss of compression, usually into the adjacent cylinder or into the cooling system. This is a major head gasket failure and requires urgent attention. From what I have seen on this forum and elsewhere, it would seem this type of head gasket failure is quite rare, and is more likely due to poor maintenance (not changing coolant, mixing coolant or insufficient coolant).

The second type of head gasket failure, if failure is the correct word, is where the engine begins leaking oil. The degree of leaking can vary from seepage to drips, although in my experience it has only been seepage. This type of failure is more manageable, and should not impact on the ability to get home unless it is incredibly bad. This type of head gasket problem is, I understand, the main problem with head gasket people with the H4 experience.

The H4 is not an economical engine but it is a reliable one. Nor is it very powerful or torquey, unless comparing the 2.5 litre to the 2 litre H4. Compare the Subaru H4 2.5 to the Mazda of the same capacity and it is night and day. Comparing a Subaru with a car costing 3-4 times as much as (Lexus) is not very fair.

If you do decide to do head gaskets on any EJ engine, then run genuine head gaskets with good head studs and if done correctly you should have no more head gasket issues on a well maintained engine

The H4T 2.5 is an interesting alternative. Straight out of the box it is a weak engine and not as reliable as the N/A engine, the earlier H4T's more so. Real reliability issues such as oil pickup failures are the biggest concern, as they are known to fail. And when they fail so does the entire engine.

The other areas of concern with the H4T are the pistons and to a lesser extent the conrods, but these problems normally only surface when chasing more performance. The sort of performance that will make the engine less suitable for off road applications.

However with a good, mild tune the 2.5 turbo (with a better oil pick up) is a ripper, although fuel consumption is not good. I have driven a stock 2.5T and while it lacked the response (torque) and power of my car, it was still a good engine performance wise. It probably would have better fuel economy than my car.

All engines have some sort of issues. Ask the owners with diesel engines who have had engine blow ups due to injector issues- I believe Toyota have had problems in this area, as have others. The EJ NA engines therefore while having issues are still a reliable engine if looked after
 
Yes, I agree that head gaskets are not as bad an issue as a vehicle stranding you somewhere for no fault of yours.

Thanks for the turbo engines info.

At the end, much will come down to the way an individual car has been maintained. On the average, however, if reliability/dependability are the top concerns, nothing in the US beats Toyota/Lexus and thus I would start a search from there.

2010+ H6 Outbacks like mine are great jacks of all trades but I am not sold on the offroad potential of the earlier H6 OBs.
 
Rally said:
The H4 is not an economical engine but it is a reliable one. Nor is it very powerful or torquey, unless comparing the 2.5 litre to the 2 litre H4. Compare the Subaru H4 2.5 to the Mazda of the same capacity and it is night and day. Comparing a Subaru with a car costing 3-4 times as much as (Lexus) is not very fair.
Click to expand...

Gonna have to dispute some of that. :raz: It's SOHC but it's got enough in it to be fun to drive.
That Lexus mentioned claims 170kw vs 129kw claimed on my '06 N/A Foz, but it's nearly a tonne heavier. Plus I can get 10L/100ks. It's not that bad.

Anyway got under mine a few days ago and it's looking worse than I thought. Here's a quick guide of what not to buy, or what to look out for :( I'm watching the oil level and going to keep an eye on it but it's possible I might be doing this sooner than I thought and doing it myself. I've never actually done any serious engine work, so someone correct me if I'm wrong with my drawings.

This is from behind the passenger (LH) front wheel looking over the drive shaft. The underbody is removed but if you get a bit tricky you can nearly see this same spot from above. In the second photo I've highlighted the dirt build up that probably suggests it's the source of the leak. You can use your phone camera like I have to get close ups and detailed shots.



 
In the US, the GX 470 is as fast to 60 as my OB and much faster than an n/a H4 Subaru. If you want to rally or take corners really fast, then, yes, mine would be better. Still, I drove the GX and it was impressive enough when launched into a corner. I assume only very few high end trucks can do that.

Back to the main point of this thread:

When we talk mid-2000s, double the purchase price does not mean that much. If you can get a mid-2000s GX 470 for 15-17,000 or a mid-2000s H4 Subaru for 7-8,000, you may well end up paying the same after all necessary and recommended repairs and maintenance but have a superior and more durable vehicle in the former case. Fuel price is hardly a concern in the US, unless you are on one of the coasts AND have a bad commute.
 
Nah. That's ridiculous. Nobody would have to spend 10k on a 7k Subaru they just bought. I don't know about OP, but when I bought my car, I had 6.5 to spend, 'doubling the purchase price' for something more reliable or capable was out of the question. I don't know what small 4wds are available in the US at that price but I was personally checking out saggy 4Runners with unknown histories, questionable Japanese import Mitsu Delica's, 00's Mitsu Challengers, ageing 4x4 SR5 Corollas and L Series Subie's, Suzuki Jimnys, and mid-late 00s Outbacks and Foresters. So take your pick from those.

If you really want to get back to the main point of the thread, OP wants a reliable Subaru and has stated that the budget stretches to 7k. I reckon you were closer to the money recommending a 07-08 Forester XT. I personally reckon a cheaper N/A Foz is a great car and more within budget. In terms of reliability, Early 00's Outback's are HG prone, later ones are better, H6 if you can stretch but H4 also fine. I believe you guys get XT Outbacks over there, don't know how easy they are to find but that'd be a great car.

Also 154,000miles is more than I'd buy if looking for reliability, find a well looked after earlier model with fewer miles. Mine had 190,000kms (118k miles), but it was much newer than anything else I was looking at, I could see from the history that it was a country commute car, and it had things on it that improved it's offroad ability that made it more desirable. So I bought it with a common known oil leak knowing that I would have a repair at some point. Better than having a flogged turbo blow up on me IMO.
 
Well, let's see what are common Subaru issues above 120k on H4 models:

Head gaskets, I have seen people mention anything from under 2000 to 3000+ depending on gaskets and shop. Would vary by state as well.

Starter and alternator. This is close to 1000 when using a non-dealer shop.

Tophats, rear bushings of the front control arms, and sway bar end links. This is minimum 1,000 for oem parts and a cheapish but reputable shop. Ok, the end links are a few minutes each but not the rest.

So this is easily 4-5,000 on a well-maintained car. That is not really suitable for anything beyond dirt roads in stock form.

Now add a 2" lift installed at a shop and this is another 1,200.

So we are now at 12-13k for a vehicle with very modest offroad credentials and no chance of outlasting a Lexus built for 1/exceptional longevity, better than 4Runner, and 2/offroad ready with no mods.

I am all for FXT, WRX, XT OBs, and I also think that the Tribeca is a phenomenal value in US at present. But a generic na H4 Subaru is nothing to long for.

The older the vehicle, the more important how it was built. Not even the most promising Subarus, i.e. mine, can match the GX in terms of mileage and years it can be relied on.

So yeah 30k vs 65k new is one thing but 7 vs 17 for 10+ year old vehicles of completely different built quality and class is a whole different debate.
 
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I.e., if you will be taking chances, do so with the most dependable possible vehicle which in the US are 1/Land cruiser and its Lexus version and 2/GX series Lexus.

It just so happens that they are also offroad ready.
 
Rambler said:


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Hang - I thought we were talking head gaskets.

I don't understand that leak -- you need to identify the source... not sure the damp patch isn't just splatter from the real leak (it doesn't look nearly wet enough).

What does the leaky goop feel like? If you're not losing oil, my first suspicion looking at those photos is a leaky steering rack (which is not uncommon), not oil from the heads. The wet block/head is just splatter from the leak.

Very unusual to get an oil gallery leaking through a head gasket externally like that. EDIT: maybe not -- my experience is with the AUDM/EUDM engines, this link explains the USDM head gasket failure mode in detail.

Give the area a really good clean - then regularly inspect it to identify the source of the leak.

btw SOHC/DOHC is meaningless for EJ engines when talking power. Both are 4 valve/cyl. The SOHCS just use long rocker arms to actuate the valves.

..
 
MiddleAgeSubie said:
Well, let's see what are common Subaru issues above 120k on H4 models:

Head gaskets, I have seen people mention anything from under 2000 to 3000+ depending on gaskets and shop. Would vary by state as well.

Starter and alternator. This is close to 1000 when using a non-dealer shop.

Tophats, rear bushings of the front control arms, and sway bar end links. This is minimum 1,000 for oem parts and a cheapish but reputable shop. Ok, the end links are a few minutes each but not the rest.

So this is easily 4-5,000 on a well-maintained car. That is not really suitable for anything beyond dirt roads in stock form.

Now add a 2" lift installed at a shop and this is another 1,200.

So we are now at 12-13k for a vehicle with very modest offroad credentials and no chance of outlasting a Lexus built for 1/exceptional longevity, better than 4Runner, and 2/offroad ready with no mods.

I am all for FXT, WRX, XT OBs, and I also think that the Tribeca is a phenomenal value in US at present. But a generic na H4 Subaru is nothing to long for.

The older the vehicle, the more important how it was built. Not even the most promising Subarus, i.e. mine, can match the GX in terms of mileage and years it can be relied on.

So yeah 30k vs 65k new is one thing but 7 vs 17 for 10+ year old vehicles of completely different built quality and class is a whole different debate.
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Anyone buying a 7k car and spending that sort of money on maintenance is a fool who is asking to be seperated from their money.

In fact, who buys a 150kmile (> 200k km) car for that price anyway? A second hand outback with that sort of mileage goes for $3-4k in Aus.

Head gaskets -- seems to be unique to the US or a range of DOHCS? Avoid them.

Starter -- brand new $150, or $50 from a wrecker. Bolts on. If your mechanic is charging more than $100 for fitment, you need to find a new mechanic.

Alternator? Never seen any issues with them. Pick one up from a wrecker for $30 and bolt it on (< 20min).

Front control arm bushes: $30 each from Febest with the aluminium mounts. Again, < 1 hour fitment time. (I did mine in my driveway on stands in about 30min).

Tophats -- really? for that mileage? -- may as well replace (with new) all your front and rear shocks + springs for $1k in parts. < 3 hours fitment. While you're there, get the $300 lift kit done.
 
I'm pretty sure it's oil and yes I'm losing a bit of oil. You're right, I suspect the spot might be further underneath the head, or it could even be something else. I probably shouldn't be giving advice without being absolutely sure of the source, but I'm trying to help OP re what a leaking head gasket might look like in an '06 Forester and what to look for:

shanditalia458 said:
already blown or will blow within the month. I need to know what to look for, what to avoid, etc.
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MiddleAgeSubie, I'm not arguing that a 4banger Forester is a better investment for 4WDing than a $17,000 Landcruiser or Lexus, and yes of course the higher quality would mean it would be holding up slightly better after 12 years and would probably go for longer with fewer issues.

I'm saying that going by the budget outlined, and the class of cars OP is currently looking at, it's a fine car and as capable and reliable as other cars in his budget and in a similar class, some of which I listed above. If we're sticking around the budget then to buy a fully capable out-of-the-box 4WD we're looking at a much older car which means reliability drops off and it is closer to the end of its life. OP hasn't even suggested that they're going to do any serious 4WDing (they've said that they're looking at an Impreza, hardly a 4WD) and so it'd be ridiculous to buy a 4WD with the attached huge price premium if they're not going to use it. The fact that in your opinion a H4 Forester is 'nothing to long for' and 'not really suitable for anything beyond dirt roads' without expensive mods is a totally moot point with that in mind, although I suspect you're just saying it to be offensive because you know I own one and really like it.
 
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