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Concerned about an engine

I bought my 04 about 7 years ago. It had a second hand car warranty which I used to fix a couple of issues. A few bushes needed replacing, but it has been a most reliable car. Of course, I had a pre purchase inspection. The first 3-4 cars I skipped. Buy the right car and you should have a trouble free car. If you live in Sydney pm me who can do a good pre purchase inspection on a Subaru
 
While I admire the passion of Forester owners, most cars and most Subarus are commonplace material objects that allow us to do certain things for a while. At some point they are done and gone.

Young folks may find beyond-utility allure in a WRX or an FXT but an n/a H4 Subaru is only good on account of its utility which logically makes reliability problems a big deal.

My 95 Legacy, which had the very reliable EJ22, served me extremely well. I got it used and cheap when it was all I could get. I am very happy with how it turned out but it was, at the same time, nothing to long for. I just happened to luck out into an EJ 22. I am fine with the replacement of starter, alternator, tophats, and front axles above 120k. It was never meant to go offroad and it could not do that anyway.

In turn, my 13 OB serves me very well now. It is immensely better than the 95. I take good care of it but it does not mean that I have any particular attachment to the thing or that if it gets totaled, I will go back to a Subaru despite being a Subaru-only family for nearly 15 years. It is as good a Swiss knife as any but this simply makes it a highly practical choice, not a dream car. So while it offers better traction and clearance than Subarus of the mid-2000s, not to mention a much longer anticipated lifespan, it is nothing to long for either in the sense of delivering big grins on or off road.

EJ 25 Subarus sold in the US will need head gaskets. My friend with the Lexus just cited me 8 examples of relatives and friends with EJ25s. ALL of them had to replace head gaskets. Add statistics to the anecdotes, and the engine makes the worst 10 engine lists in the US. By the way why would anyone want to replace head-gaskets with the same poor OEM part that caused the problem in the first place? This is what causes second head gasket replacement, also common in the US. The OB forum has info on better options available in the US.

Anyway, I will put it more bluntly. Chances one can get a vehicle in the US that is

1/reliable and 2/off-road ready for under 10,000 are slim to none.

Now, if one does all the wrenching at home, that changes many things. But I am not sure why it is assumed on this forum that this is necessarily the case.

While things are relatively cheap in the US, labor is relatively expensive.

As for tophats, it is a very common repair at my dealer per my mechanic.

if I have to recommend a Subaru that is a great value, that would be a 2008+ Tribeca. Prices have plummeted and a well-maintained Tribeca should not exhibit other problems than the typical front suspension issues mentioned above. However, it is inherently limited beyond dirt roads due to angles and size to clearance ratio and it delivers a rather poor for a 6 cylinder engine mpg. It is a better value than a Lexus overall but it cannot compare offroad. H6 Outbacks of that vintage can also be excellent on paved and dirt roads but they are hard to find at low prices.
 
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I bought my 04 about 7 years ago. It had a second hand car warranty which I used to fix a couple of issues. A few bushes needed replacing, but it has been a most reliable car. Of course, I had a pre purchase inspection. The first 3-4 cars I skipped. Buy the right car and you should have a trouble free car. If you live in Sydney pm me who can do a good pre purchase inspection on a Subaru


The problem is that the person apparently lives in Salem, West Virginia.

I am not sure why s/he is getting all this Australia-specific advice.

The prices of things and labor as well as vehicle parts and especially aftermarket options in the US are not the same as in Australia.

I am not sure about the Foz forum, but all needed info about headgaskets in the US, including best replacement parts and good prices for labor is readily available on the OBS forum.
 
Advise re Subaru reliability is universal, common platforms, common engines etc.

Yes, but not the prices cited. Also, not all parts are identical. And aftermarket realities are surely different.

The OP asks if an EJ 25 is a headgasket bomb. The answer is yes, it is. Not everyone considers headgaskets a big deal, but if the OP does, then the EJ25 is the wrong choice.
 
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The problem is that the person apparently lives in Salem, West Virginia.

I am not sure why s/he is getting all this Australia-specific advice.

The prices of things and labor as well as vehicle parts and especially aftermarket options in the US are not the same as in Australia.

I am not sure about the Foz forum, but all needed info about headgaskets in the US, including best replacement parts and good prices for labor is readily available on the OBS forum.

MAS -- agreed. The head gasket issue is basically non-existent in Oz delivered cars, whilst it seems to be endemic in US vehicles.

Labour is expensive here in Oz - probably more so than the US. Our minimum wage is near $US15.

Local part sources in Oz are definitely more expensive. Its often cheaper to personally import parts from the US than buy locally.

Many of the faults you list (apart from head gaskets) are quick to fix by any competent mechanic and I can't believe the prices you're quoting. One advantage Subarus generally have - they're easy to work on and parts are plentiful.
 
MAS -- agreed. The head gasket issue is basically non-existent in Oz delivered cars, whilst it seems to be endemic in US vehicles.

Labour is expensive here in Oz - probably more so than the US. Our minimum wage is near $US15.

Local part sources in Oz are definitely more expensive. Its often cheaper to personally import parts from the US than buy locally.

Many of the faults you list (apart from head gaskets) are quick to fix by any competent mechanic and I can't believe the prices you're quoting. One advantage Subarus generally have - they're easy to work on and parts are plentiful.

Yes, it is possible that the US 2.5 engine sacrificed reliability in order to gain a few more HP. The person asking the question is in the US. Hence my insistence on the frequency of the head gasket problems.

There are other ways in which some US Subarus have been cheaper but inferior to OZ and EU models (lack of low range on MTs in the 1990s and 2000s is the most obvious).

Of course, prices depend on DIY, local guy vs a shop vs a dealer and would vary from state to state and shop to shop. Most hilariously, I have been quoted anywhere from 650 to 1,200 for TB 120k maintenance which I did myself. Local shop was 550+ with dubious fluids.

Dealer labor in Phoenix is about 160/hour and it is charged by the book, not by actual time worked. Local shops charge about 90-100 per hour. The trick is to find one that would charge actual time worked as opposed to the hours listed in the Big Book of AreYouKiddingMe? prices.

It is likely that prices in WV are lower than they are in AZ but it won't be radically cheaper unless you are paying a person rather than a shop.
 
While I agree with some of what you say MiddleAgedSubie and respect that you're probably both more knowledgable and experienced than me, you're still driving me nuts. :)

While I admire the passion of Forester owners, most cars and most Subarus are commonplace material objects that allow us to do certain things for a while. At some point they are done and gone. Young folks may find beyond-utility allure in a WRX or an FXT but an n/a H4 Subaru is only good on account of its utility which logically makes reliability problems a big deal.

All cars are done and gone at some point - What keeps them going is partly their build quality but mainly their market value. Clutches, timing belts or chains, cracked windscreens, tyres, suspension components - What is universal between manufacturers is that *everything* becomes a consumable on a long enough time scale, and all cars are terrible financial investments and will cost a lot of money to maintain.

The reason expensive 4WDs seem to go for longer is because they hold their value much longer as they are expensive speciality vehicles, and so people are happy to keep pouring money into them replacing things as they break. If the possibility of a 2k head gasket replacement on an otherwise great car is that much of a deal breaker, then lease a new Hyundai - You'd be up for the same amount for any used car eventually.

Or a tyre might blow on your new Hyundai, throwing you into the freeway barricade (Subie AWD might save you there). Saying that an EJ is 'in the worst 10 engines in the US' because of a HG issue is hyperbolic and ignores both the expensive nature of used car ownership and the otherwise great car.

Most of the old 4WDs I was checking out had had major work done recently - From head gaskets to suspension work, through to whole new engines and new transmissions, stuff that you would never see on a Subie as it would have exceeded it's market value and sent it to the scrap yard (where it can be stripped for cheap and decent used parts). On top of that, they'd been through several owners, and probably used off road by at least one of them (but never ever the owner selling it;) ), meaning all of that mythological reliability was questionable when compared with a purely 'utility' owned H4. And trust me, repairs weren't any cheaper, I saw the receipts. You're dreaming if you think you can buy a used car that won't need big ticket repairs over the years. At least H4s are common enough to be picky about.

My 95 Legacy, which had the very reliable EJ22, served me extremely well...It was never meant to go offroad and it could not do that anyway.

It is a different car to a Forester, besides the EJ.

In turn, my 13 OB serves me very well now. It is immensely better than the 95. I take good care of it but it does not mean that I have any particular attachment to the thing or that if it gets totaled, I will go back to a Subaru despite being a Subaru-only family for nearly 15 years. It is as good a Swiss knife as any but this simply makes it a highly practical choice, not a dream car. So while it offers better traction and clearance than Subarus of the mid-2000s, not to mention a much longer anticipated lifespan, it is nothing to long for either in the sense of delivering big grins on or off road.

Anything that delivers big grins off road will not deliver them on road, and impracticality does not equal big grins day to day once the novelty of driving 33" MTs wears off. The increased practically, primary and secondary safety of a Subaru when compared with a big 4WD means less chance of totalling it; is that not the biggest cost/reliability consideration? As for me, I've had great on road and off road experiences in my old Outback and my Forester - I don't waste my time wishing it could rock crawl or smash Evo's because it's a great car to drive anywhere and it does everything I want it to, and could do much more.

EJ 25 Subarus sold in the US will need head gaskets. My friend with the Lexus just cited me 8 examples of relatives and friends with EJ25s. ALL of them had to replace head gaskets. Add statistics to the anecdotes, and the engine makes the worst 10 engine lists in the US. By the way why would anyone want to replace head-gaskets with the same poor OEM part that caused the problem in the first place? This is what causes second head gasket replacement, also common in the US. The OB forum has info on better options available in the US.

I don't buy that the EJ head design in the US version is different to the Australian version till you can show something that says so; you're simply ignoring the equal credibility of conflicting anecdotal evidence that says that it's more luck than fact. I'd agree that using the same OEM head gaskets would be a strange choice that would need to be justified (was it redesigned?), and I've heard good things from Subaru mechanics who use the third party ones.

And yes, the early 00's OB wagons seem to be especially prone to it, we've established that and listed them as a particular model to avoid. My old '00 model had it replaced at 240,000kms, I had it done as soon as the clutch went to avoid pulling the engine out twice and last I heard the car's happily on it's way to 300,000. Big deal.

Anyway, I will put it more bluntly. Chances one can get a vehicle in the US that is

1/reliable and 2/off-road ready for under 10,000 are slim to none.

I see you're from Arizona MiddleAgedSubie. On Google it looks a lot like the surface of mars. :raz: I think that we're going to have to accept geographical differences in what is 'offroad ready'; you being at the extreme end. Here in the Victorian High Country (which looks more similar to OP's state) Subie's make perfectly capable off road vehicles in most situations. We do get low range here too.

Anyway, I agree to disagree. :cool:
 
It is not the head gasket which causes the problem. It is the result of another problem. THAT is why I suggest getting head studs instead of head bolts. It is also why I cited the need for cars to be well maintained and noted the difference in the type of head gasket failures. The key to everything is good servicing, not withstanding the fact that EJ25's do seep oil from the head gasket area- something servicing cannot stop.
 
I see you're from Arizona MiddleAgedSubie. On Google it looks a lot like the surface of mars. :raz: I think that we're going to have to accept geographical differences in what is 'offroad ready'; you being at the extreme end. Here in the Victorian High Country (which looks more similar to OP's state) Subie's make perfectly capable off road vehicles in most situations. We do get low range here too.

Anyway, I agree to disagree. :cool:

We can agree to disagree on most things, but the Ej25 on US Subarus is a head gasket problem waiting to happen. It is statistics, forget the anecdotes.

Haha about Mars. That would actually be Southern Utah, lol, which is my favorite area to explore.

There are three distinct areas for exploration in the US Southwest, which is the place to go offroad in the US due to a great deal to all the old mining roads in several states that are now 4x4 trails.

Utah is outwardly, much is slickrock, which is nice to deal with when dry, and all the short extreme trails for motorsport aside, most trails that go places are accessible to a lifted Subaru at a variety of times during the year.

The second area are the mountains of CO. Completely different from Utah but equally gorgeous sights. Trails there vary greatly but they tend to be very narrow old mining roads above precipitous cliffs. This means that serious rock obstacles typically have no bypasses. There is much I can do but there is much that I cannot. Here the control provided by good low range and the angles of 4x4s are irreplaceable. The bad news about CO is the very short season. The great trails are at elevations of up to 4,000 meters and are thus accessible only in July-August. In addition, they tend to be relatively short, which makes them crowded, which in turn requires more capability to avoid having to work on the trail and become the cause of a bottleneck. There is likely to be little sympathy for a Subaru driver needing help from a 4X4.

The third area is the Sonoran and Mojave deserts to the south which are completely different from the Utah desert. You are right about the Sonoran desert. The relentless mixture of granite rocks and coarse sand is extremely brutal thus offroad trails tend to bifurcate into at least decently maintained and at least moderately challenging. There is very little in between the easy and the really rough. The worst part, however, is that the desert terrain here is extremely changeable. The two main 4x4 guides are written by folks from elsewhere and they systematically under-rate the trail difficulty here. Things change dramatically after a single rain, more so than in Utah and a lot more so than in Colorado. Besides, while the Sonoran desert is very beautiful, if you have driven a few trails, you have done them all as far as the scenery goes. Once you get used to the vegetation, it all gets the same imo unlike the always different geological formations in S. Utah or mountain vistas in Co.

As for most of the US, yes, a Subaru will be just fine since we are usually talking forest roads but even there VDC models with higher clearance have the advantage in bad weather and on spur trails. There are some very rocky forest trails in AZ and I bet similar exist in WV.

Finally, in some states there are areas with extensive beaches open to 4x4 driving where Subarus rock.
 
Haha my friend asked me for Subie wagon advice today to replace a Volvo. I caught myself telling him to avoid the 2.5s as they're head gasket bombs. Guess you convinced me after all...
 
Haha my friend asked me for Subie wagon advice today to replace a Volvo. I caught myself telling him to avoid the 2.5s as they're head gasket bombs. Guess you convinced me after all...

That's funny. But from reading this discussion, I am not sure the US spec 2.5 is the same as yours. Might be but I would not take that for granted.
 
The head gasket issue was confined to the '03-'05 Series I SG so from '06 onwards you should be OK;

Kevin: I've been quietly following this thread. My 2.5l N/A Forester is MY06, so I figured I was safe. Then my check engine light came on...

Turns out I have an ignition problem that burnt up the front catalytic converter, and my head gaskets are starting to leak. Now the mechanic is suggesting that we replace the head gaskets while he's got the exhaust disconnected for the cat. Oh boy! :sad:

Our MY10 and MY 06 Foresters both have slightly weeping head gaskets - 2 on the SH and one on the SG.

Neither uses any oil between changes, that's about every 24 months/12,000 Kms.

Both have EJ-253 donks and use Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 fully synthetic oil.

Ratbag: Do you expect the slightly weeping heads to get worse eventually, so that you'll have to replace the head gaskets? Reason I ask is that I just told the mechanic to fix my ignition issue and the cat, which is going to cost an arm and a leg, and hold off on the head gaskets, which would cost another arm and leg. I wonder whether I made the right decision to wait on the head gaskets?

I had the head gaskets replaced on my 2002 SG when the timing belt was changed. It wasn't a big deal. I am about to do the timing belt on the 2004 SG and its head gaskets weep a bit of oil so I will also have the gaskets replaced at the same time.

Interesting, havachat. My mechanic made it sound like replacing the head gaskets is a big job. Apparently, you have to pull the engine out of the car to do it, and it's going to cost over US$2000 in parts and labor. That gave me enough sticker shock that I hesitated to pay up and decided to wait. Having second thoughts now...

PS: My MY06 Forester is just short of 100,000 miles, i.e. 150,000km.
 
Lifting an engine out for HGs is by far the easiest way to do the work!

While you're there it's the best time to do the water pump, cam belt kit, rear main seal and the clutch if that looks like it needs to be replaced.

The exhaust work can be done from under the car - but the. It'll need to come off again for the HG work. Plus if the HG is partly responsible for killing the cat converter you're running that risk again...

To me a HG replacement isn't hard, it's just a pain in the arse especially with newer vehicles and all their emissions gear/sensor wiring that needs to be removed just they to said engine...

My advice is to do the whole lot at once. Costly but in the long run worth it IMHO.

Cheers

Bennie
 
Thanks, Bennie. I guess replacing head gaskets is not rocket science, but involves a lot of work to remove engine for easy access.

Interesting note on extra work to do at same time. Mine is the 4EAT, so no worries about a clutch. I'm actually not sure whether timing belt's been done on my car, but that would be an obvious candidate if not.

The mechanic didn't think leaking HG had anything to do with burned cat. He attributed that specifically to the ignition coil problem, and me continuing to drive while engine was running roughly. So I essentially caused an extra $1000+ in damage (burning front cat) by not going to mechanic right away. He said that there was no risk to running with slightly weeping HG, as long as I keep an eye on engine overheating, coolant, and oil level.

I'm still debating calling the mechanic and asking him to do head gaskets now. Then it would be done and I don't have to worry about it. But I hate to spend $4000 on repairs when the car itself probably is only worth twice that. Still less expensive than a new car, though, or a used replacement, which might develop issues of its own.
 
Better than $2000 worth if work on a car worth $500. Been there before... Car is worth more to me than the market dictates and was far cheaper than the money and effort required in getting another car and putting it on the road ;)

But that's my way of thinking. I'm not done with my subi, that's for sure! I'd now like to aim for the 600k km mark :D

Cheers

Bennie
 
Better than $2000 worth if work on a car worth $500. Been there before... Car is worth more to me than the market dictates and was far cheaper than the money and effort required in getting another car and putting it on the road ;)

But that's my way of thinking. I'm not done with my subi, that's for sure! I'd now like to aim for the 600k km mark :D

Thanks for the perspective! I can definitely follow your line of reasoning. 600k km may be ambitious. I'm shooting for 300k (200k miles) for now, which is double what it has now at 10/11 years of age.

Either way, I don't want to change cars, and have to redo lift and all the other things I've done to personalize the Forester. So it will remain part of the family, and I just have to spread out the work to minimize sticker shock. ;)
 
Hi all,

Love the response, although to me it sounds like there is a lot of conflicting opinions. Consider the following:

02 Forester w/128k miles. $5000. N/A 2.5L. Haven't seen it in person but from pics it looks great.

Opinions?
 
Ratbag: Do you expect the slightly weeping heads to get worse eventually, so that you'll have to replace the head gaskets? Reason I ask is that I just told the mechanic to fix my ignition issue and the cat, which is going to cost an arm and a leg, and hold off on the head gaskets, which would cost another arm and leg. I wonder whether I made the right decision to wait on the head gaskets?

Escher, I'm not going to worry about the very slightly weeping HG on our MY06. Neither is our mechanic of some 15+ years, whom I trust absolutely. It can wait until the next major service in about 100K Kms time ... :).

With the SH, I'll get a quote from Ross to do them at the same time as the timing belt etc (next major service in about 24 months/12,000 Kms). This should cut the labour costs considerably.

Neither of ours is using any measurable quantity of oil between services at this stage.
 
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