What factors make Off Road Ability?

sure i get it why forester is better in that way. i could get dual range outback too but i chose auto. and i think its almost as capable and without mods manual burns very fast on foresters. and 4eat is like tank its just goes.
and if you put lots money you can make almost any car as good as you need it.
about capability offroad i remember was watching this video about new forester with x mode and how VDC works vs x mode vs both vs none
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BtRkjC-8gc&t=320s"]Subaru Forester (2016): ?????? ?????? X-Mode ? VDC - YouTube[/ame]
that VDC is still some mystery for me like how it works and how it does that magic that car moves forward in harsh situations.

about those 1st gen subarus that all driving in youtube. they not stock ones i presume . because what we have here with dual range are 2.0 NA machines that cannot go very much not in city neither in offroad. some impreza with forester shocks lifted would go very good too, even lighter then forester and smaller. we have dual range old imprezas here too

It is impossible to overstate how bad the Outback angles are. Even with the 2" lift and 1" bigger tires, I have poor angles as opposed to dreadful angles.

Some Forester models start with much better angles. So after a lift and with bigger tires, they get into some decent territory.

VDC just uses the brakes to stop spinning wheels. Everybody is using this. In the US, Toyota started in 2000, Nissan in 2005, Jeep in 2007, Subaru put it on all models in 2010.

It is a very effective system but it is limited in rocks. This is why the high-end models still offer a traditional locker in the rear, with the Rubicon also up front (speaking of the US).

I strongly disagree with "put lots of money," unless you have the right platform from the get go. As mentioned above, what constitutes the "right platform" will vary by the terrain and by the market realities in different countries.

My approach angle now is about 28' . doesnt seem that lower then forester with 2" lift with bumper
I just call vdc as model vdc with new awd system which is not same as old active awd system .vdc models not just using abs to brake wheels its have all bunch of sensors and does much more for traction. i can see why those forester videos everywhere need momentum, they just rush to go or else they not going anywhere. Thats with stock diffs and such. And with speed you brake things i proved in my video what vdc does in snow vs no vdc. It just lets you go slower. I used it in mud too and it works as well for me. And active awd with auto its just 90/10 awd to start with. And depends where you going and where you live you might be no need more angles. I would choose anyday vdc awd system against old active awd with better angles. Its like 4x4 with open diffs vs newer 4x4 with traction control.

On vehicles with automatic transmissions, to retain/regain vehicle stability VDC tries to adjust the front/rear torque split to balance the available traction, rather than applying brake force. If the total traction is still not enough for stability and wheels continue to spin, the system will then use braking and reduced engine power to reduce momentum and help regain control.

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its lot of things comes into VDC as name

Traction Control, Electronic Stability, Limited-Slip Device, Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS), Electronic Brake Force Distribution (EBD), and Brake Assist are all components of the Vehicle Dynamics Control System (VDC).

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"The components of the VDC system are:
Direction: uses brakes to slow down wheels to reduce spin and help control vehicle direction.
Skidding: yaw and steering wheel sensors use brakes to slow down spinning wheels and re-direct power to the wheel(s) with the best traction to re-gain control.
Engine power: controls engine output to slow spinning by reducing spark to cylinders to cut back power and help re-gain control."

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just going slowly on snow trying to climb that hill

it failing to even move, ok lets give it another try with some momentum

almost , but didint went any further.
lets try now VDC on 2nd gear.

Yup, 28 degrees is a decent AA, but your front bumper ain't exactly stock anymore!

Nice videos!

just don't tell MOT about that. i just passed that . they went : there is something missing in your front bumper does it? i was : umm not sure what you mean it was like that . they : OK . passed . lol

^:lol:

Would be interesting to know what mod helps most off road.

Now that Rally has a rear locker, he will probably tell us that its the ultimate mod but it is useless without a DCCD or a 4EAT lock mod.

I did a few mods to my Forester too and I would say that the DCCD comes in first place for a manual gearbox because it gives 50/50 power front/rear so you have at least two wheel drive.

I also have helical differentials front and rear, they work very well as long as the wheels are on the ground but are useless if the opposite is in the air. Because of that, I decided to go for long travel suspension to keep the wheels as long as possible on the ground and that is a very good upgrade. I'd like to test my Forester with the DCCD and long travel suspension only, without the front/rear helicals to see where the limit is but its not really possible.

And now tires...the more you mod your car, the less you think about the tires because you get grip anyway but it can be dangerous because when braking, for example, all the mods done for better traction won't help you. In fact, it all depends on the surface you're driving but if its snow...it can be scary !

So otherwise subaru 4eat not gives 50/50 ? What about fixed gears, people where saying that fixed 1 or 2 gives kinda locked 50/50. I mean then there are later models with 55/45 and vdc still with 4eat. And for earlier active awd you can make switch for hearbox to lock 50/50 no ? Lots options here. Maybe not all them for older foresters sure.
Tires are very important. Otherwise you just need speed to pass some places. Why then big donkey moded 4x4 with lockers dont go anywhere with bad tires.
Lockers .what will happen if you have good tire that gives lots grip and your diff locked it tries to spin wheel but tire keeps it hard and it brakes cv. It goes for weakest point.

jf1sf5 said:

Would be interesting to know what mod helps most off road.

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I'd say it's the nut behind the wheel :iconwink:

I think anything that helps keep the wheels on the ground is a most useful upgrade.

It will really depend on the model and generation.

I think that Kevin exemplifies the pre-VDC crowd, to be honest. Similarly, superu_legacy cannot stop raving about the articulation of his Prado-based truck.

But I do not care because I have had no issues with wheels off the ground and my center of gravity is far too low for me to worry about rollovers like Jeep guys do, especially on short wheelbase Wranglers. On the vast majority of terrain, it just does not matter to current VDC models. I have had two wheels up on a few occasions, including a small ledge. I have had one wheel up countless of times, due to the poor articulation. Unless you have other mods already in place, you just cannot get to a place, at least here in the desert/mountainous SW of the US, where VDC is not enough.

So, for me, it has always been clearance, clearance, clearance, especially angles, but also undercarriage clearance (which thanks to SubieLift OZ is no longer an issue).

If I knew enough back then to get a 2012 FXT instead, I might have been far better off as that model has better angles and undercarriage clearance than any Subaru plus the turbo engine.

at the end of the day most important in journey is how you feel while going there. do you think of : ohh i put so much money to it all lockers and stuff so its better perform best for me now... and you expecting it be perfect. Or you know what your car can do and you enjoying while driving there. because its more about skills and patience and finding best way , and not just seeing mud and thinking allright lets just floor it and see whats will become of it.

Yep, best mod is the nut behind the wheel :lol:

Then, for older Subarus without VDC, I would do the long travel suspension and the DCCD first, the 1,59:1 low range and differential upgrades in second and the bigger engine for more torque in third. And of course, don't forget the sump guard as its not even an option !

looks like its better just take other car. that actually have all those or most of those. feels like someone not happy with subaru as it is so hes making some version of 4x4 of it . why then need subaru at all?. i would just buy more capable and bigger car with all those things but in default state. and you cant just tell people later : ohh my forester can do this ... because its nothing of forester there anymore. its like you start project and you cant stop so you doing more and more, in end weakest parts starts to brake down or even body panel cracking and splitting. because it was not made to do that.

Hey scalman,

Good points for discussion, you raise

There are many reasons to both ditch and heavily modify a Subaru, depending on the person and the context.

When I got the OB, I never thought I would be doing what I have been driving. My hopes were to eventually drive the White Rim Road and the Alpine loop, but I did not--and could not--predict that within a few years getting places via dirt and 4x4 roads would become my favorite recreation.

Now, many people in the US change cars like laptops. Had I purchased a 4 cylinder OB or a used OB, I would have probably just replaced it a couple years ago already. But there are many virtues to turbo Foresters and H6 OBs that are impossible to ignore. They are far too superior to part-time 4x4s not only on road, but also on dirt. Even for me, off-pavement driving is just 5% of total mileage of the OB to date. And of those 5%, about 70% is on dirt roads that anything can handle (just a lot faster and more comfortable in an OB). In other words, over 67,000 miles, the OB has been superior to most 4x4 competition nearly 99% of the time. Sure, had I had a Wrangler or a 4Runner, I would have driven 2-3 dozen more 4x4 trails, so the number is a little skewed.

And this poses the classic question: do you optimize for that in which you really delight (offroad or track use for sports cars)? Or do you optimize for 98% of the time? For me, the only argument for a Wrangler is FUN. And for a Toyota, it is cargo room and payload capacity. However, since getting a dog, the latter no longer matters. We are not going anywhere without our trailer anymore anyway. The trailer is only 1,000lb loaded, so a Forester could pull it.

Now, if I did not have the H6 OB already, I would have surely purchased either a Wrangler or a 4Runner instead of wasting my time on internet forums and getting extra white hair learning how to get over rocks in a car. But with all the knowledge I now have and with all the money already in the OB, replacing it is just a poor financial decision and emotionally dull, too. As you say, there is something to being the only vehicle of its kind in some places.

This is why it does make sense to modify the Subaru as much as possible SO LONG AS you already have the Subaru and its Subaru virtues--handling and comfort on road and dirt roads--are not compromised. If the car rides like a truck, get a truck. If it handles like a truck, get a truck. But if you can preserve handling and ride while boosting offroad capability, you are saving a lot of money by keeping the Subaru (assuming you do the work or most of it).

The other reason I see people going far with Subarus is price. The entry point into the Wrangler world is very, very steep for a used vehicle and the Toyotas are not too much better. In the US, Wranglers and Toyotas are a relative bargain new but the folks you see modifying their SUbarus heavily are not in the position to pay 30-40k for a Wrangler or 4Runner.

Finally, there are two models that contradict what I wrote above: the Grand Cherokee (in the right trim) and the Land Cruiser. However, the latter is extremely pricey and in the US its current version, the 200, is far from ready for serious trail work stock. It is better than a Subaru, but is nowhere close to a Wrangler whereas the 100 used to be better than the Wrangler of that day. Things do change over time...The Grand Cherokee Overland is in principle the exact vehicle I should be driving. It is supremely comfortable, offers a choice of excellent engines, comes with a superb, full-time 4WD and adjustable suspension. Unfortunately, it is not reliable enough and it is quite pricey. I could live with one of those deficiencies, but not with both.

I keep my Subaru because it is fun to drive on road, small enough to find a park place in town (I live right in the center of Geneva), is cool to work on, is reliable and last but not least...I often beat the big fourbies off road

A beautiful city you live in!

Here is a classic Utah trail, rated difficult but not very difficult and very far from extreme. The trail actually is quite long and exits elsewhere but both drivers here just did a small section. I have hiked to the confluence of the rivers (second video) but the hiking trail rarely coincides with the vehicle one:

So, look how hard this sophisticated Touareg has to work. It gets by the way I do on high-end moderate trails. Sure, it gets the job done but it is very unimpressive:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3rRkd84A9g"]Touareg on Elephant Hill in Canyonlands National Park - YouTube[/ame]

By contrast, this lowliest of Wranglers (cheapest trim, no locking differentials or even standard air condition lol) just walks up and down like it is nothing:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGs6XE4H6hs"]Elephant Hill Moab 2016 - YouTube[/ame]

MiddleAgeSubie said:

Hey scalman,

Good points for discussion, you raise.

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yes agree on those. my choice was price and i allways loved impreza vs lancer evo rivals. but then i looked at prices and ...after long long reaching i couldnt find anything that would be wagon , would have AWD and would have that comfort not be too old and cost that less.. another car that would be better offroad here in my are that cost same cheap as outbacks or foresters are grand sherokee's . and i love how they look and how amazing they drive offroad in mostly stock form. and with little lift they just monsters.
but then i wanted drivers car , and subaru are so much drivers cars. yes they better onroad then all 4x4 and they can go most times faster offroad then those heavy 4x4. i knew i will want travel with car and even sleep in it . and i fit in my outback easily . we 2 people slept there for 2 weeks and i felt like im sleeping at home in bed. same comfort just would be good to run air con from some separate battery maybe for even more comfort.
and really i no wanna mod any more to this outback. lift and tires now are perfectly enough for me. i no go with big 4x4 mudding and brake cars. most of offroaders have their offroad cars as separate cars, where mine is daily driver and taking passengers , bagadge , food, would, just anything that i can carry. it will nevr be some touring car with fixed boxes inside and fridges. never. it can have that same just not fixed inside . but moveable. its more practical. if subarus are casr that are cheap , then why we mod then later for thousands dollars more. i see it as cheap ar capable cars and i wanna drive as their are mostly. just some little mods that can be diy for very cheap. well just tires. they cost. but i bever feel bad i bought most expensive tires that where from all AT tires here. i think they baddest strongest and they do baja ..i mean cmon. they monsters.
whats funny in videos to watch is when people take their lowered turbo forester with slick city tires offroad and then talk how they can go and how they stuck on mud and such... some weird people out there. but its fun to watch.

Its because a Subaru is cheap that there is enough money left to mod it ! Except the HotBits coilovers and helical diffs, all my mods have been done with junkyard spare parts, so not that expensive. If you break anything, its because you're not smooth with mechanics, I always try to drive as slow as possible off road, didn't break anything yet !

I'd love to drive that Elephant Hill trail with my Forester ! The reason why the Touareg needs traction control is because its an iron...no flex at all !